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KingAl
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« Reply #165 on: September 02, 2007, 06:23:10 AM »

I guess that while a file system may be case-sensitive - i.e. be able to differentiate based on case - the OS itself may well be case insensitive, hence OS X and XP/Vista apparently being case insensitive despite their file systems being sensitive (if that information is accurate).
Also it's quite probable that, given that Windows will ditch backwards compatibility, Vienna (or whatever the next Windows will be called) will also feature a case sensitive FS since it's the logical thing to do.
Disregarding exactly what makes it 'logical', keep in mind that 'backwards compatible' doesn't necessarily just entail software - Microsoft would have a hard time changing such a low-level features without causing issues with users, which is perhaps the most important point: I don't think you could reliably say that such a change is inevitable.

Windows users may not see this as a great game because I think Windows users tend to look more at the graphics and how mainstream the product is, so selling it in that market may not be too great. The whole concept of having a 2d side-scroller is pretty much considered to be "old" and people don't like "old" stuff.
Blanket statements, much? I think you're describing mainstream gamers, there, not Windows gamers.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 06:30:40 AM by KingAl » Logged
Alec
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« Reply #166 on: September 02, 2007, 07:03:48 AM »

I don't think OSX will start using a case sensitive file system. I'm working alongside Mac devs from Ambrosia, and they haven't mentioned that ever changing. I haven't seen it mentioned in porting docs. So I figure it'll be the same from now on, since it seems Apple would destroy a lot of software if they made things case sensitive. Mac dev has gone fairly smoothly. The game is also running on linux in rough form, after many many annoying and time-eating changes to the engine. I assume you've seen the video already.

In terms of releases, we're going to finish the Windows version first, then Mac, and leave Linux for last, as it'll likely take extra rounds of testing.

I know that Linux and the user's file system are two separate things, but since the majority of Linux users use the case sensitive file system, I don't see why its a big deal to assume that by porting to Linux you're going to have to deal with case sensitivity. In practice, they go hand in hand more often than the other OSes.

Its my opinion that case sensitivity is stupid. You don't have to agree with me, but I don't think its likely that you'll change my mind about it being stupid either. Wink

Also, it seems like since there are many times more games available on Windows, and that game development is generally more easy to get into on Windows, that Windows gamers would be more exposed to everything, including a lot of indie games and freeware.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 07:33:46 AM by Alec » Logged

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« Reply #167 on: September 02, 2007, 01:13:20 PM »

The proper term for both the default HFS+ and NTFS is "case-insensitive but case-preserving"--that is, if you save "file" and "FILE" they will both appear as such, but cannot exist in the same folder. Contrast that with e2fs, where they can both exist, or FAT, where all filenames are converted to uppercase.

You may have gotten your information about HFS+ being case-sensitive due to a more recent innovation, HFSX. HFSX gives you the option to make your filesystem case-sensitive, but it's a well-known fact that doing so can cause things to break, so it's recommended against.

As for whether or not case-sensitivity is good, I would claim that bundling a file "Data" with an app, but hard-coding the name "data" for it, is broken, and case-insensitivity is simply tolerant of the brokenness. For many users, that sort of tolerance is a good thing, but it's also good to have a decent user-base that will get burned by it, as an incentive to fix it.
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KingAl
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« Reply #168 on: September 02, 2007, 02:25:29 PM »

... it's also good to have a decent user-base that will get burned by it, as an incentive to fix it.
See, I can only see something as 'broken' if it actually causes or has the potential to cause problems in the application for which it was intended, or otherwise it's just creating arbitrary requirements.  That is, having a userbase or scenario for which it is broken isn't an incentive to fix it, it's the only reason it should ever need to be fixed.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 02:27:09 PM by KingAl » Logged
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« Reply #169 on: September 02, 2007, 03:01:17 PM »

Sorry, maybe "broken" is too strong a word. Perhaps just "a mistake." Point is, if I name the file "Data" and start scanning for references, I'm probably going to miss occurrences of "data" (the reverse might not be true). It's an arbitrary requirement, but like many others when designing a complex system, it's a good one.
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luciferin
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« Reply #170 on: September 02, 2007, 03:12:54 PM »

OS X already has the ability to be a case sensitive filesystem.  When you initially format your drive it's in as one of the filesystem options.  You can check this out in Disk Utility if you don't believe me.  As for how this would effect developers and their programs.... I have no idea.
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« Reply #171 on: September 02, 2007, 03:19:16 PM »

Yeah, it may have the ability. But nobody uses it. (as far as I know)

Hence: the difference!
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shinygerbil
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« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2007, 04:26:00 PM »

wow, this old hairy monster thread :O

Personally, being quite an anal person, I'd probably have made sure that my stuff worked case-sensitively, or I'd have actually sat down and thought of a scheme for naming files (probably "do everything in lowercase and hope you can still understand it" ). But I can quite understand why it would be ten times easier not to have to worry about what is really a trivial thing, especially as you were not really planning on a Linux port from the beginning. I'm still very pleased and impressed that you've managed so much progress so quickly; keep it up! Cheesy
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Sfiera
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« Reply #173 on: September 02, 2007, 06:34:52 PM »

Well, I have case-sensitive HFSX on one of my computers--of course, I mainly use that computer for Unix-y thingies, and I keep a case-insensitive partition around just in case Smiley (and by "just in case" I mean "in case of Starcraft")
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« Reply #174 on: September 11, 2007, 05:42:06 PM »

Just a quick question Cheesy

For those of us who absolutely can't wait for the game to get finished (*cough* everyone here *cough*) and buy the Windows version as soon as it's available, will we have a license to use the Linux version if and when it arrives? In other words, if I buy the Windows version for, oh, I dunno, 20 bucks, will I have to pay another $20 for the Linux version?
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Alec
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« Reply #175 on: September 12, 2007, 04:35:12 AM »

I'm not sure yet.

The problem is that if a lot of people who want the Linux version also don't mind playing the Windows version, buy that one first and expect the Linux version for free... there won't be much incentive for us to finish a Linux version! Smiley

Right now I want to focus on getting the first version (Windows) done right, and worry about the ports after... so probably won't have a solid answer until later. But the odds of us giving away ports for "free" are pretty low, seeing how much time is going to have to be invested in them in porting and testing and compatibility.

(and there absolutely 0% chance of the Mac version being offered at any other rate than what Ambrosia sets; they're the publisher!)
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« Reply #176 on: September 12, 2007, 05:39:25 AM »

Alrighty, well I look forward to any and all versions, separate pay or not Grin ! Keep up the awesome work!
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Zam
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« Reply #177 on: September 12, 2007, 06:36:27 PM »


(and there absolutely 0% chance of the Mac version being offered at any other rate than what Ambrosia sets; they're the publisher!)

And from my experience, that means Aquaria will most likely be 30$. (Ambrosia's most expensive game was 30$, cheapest was 20$ I think.)

Due to how awesome/complete/replayable it is. (Not to mention an editor, multiable ports, ect)
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Panzer88
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« Reply #178 on: September 18, 2007, 04:50:53 AM »

I'm sure Nintendo would love to have you port it to their "Wii Ware". Once they start that up you should certainly look into it. I'd buy it for sure. (On top of a PC version [no really! for my little brother Wink  ])
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« Reply #179 on: September 19, 2007, 04:35:12 AM »

I;d consider buying a linux version. I don't run OSX or WIndows so that would be my only option.

I would however expect a native exutable. It should work with Wine would not be a sufficent guarantee for me that I can run the game.

PS I use Ubuntu as well.
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